[Editor’s Note: Return to Mago E-Magazine (RTME) introduces Sister Organizations under the banner of the Nine Sister Networks as a way of consolidating Matriversal Feminism previously known as Goddess Feminist Activist Spirituality. If you are interested in interviewing or being interviewed for this project, please see here. This interview was conducted through a Zoom meeting and its video recording and script are available below.]
Carolyn: Welcome! I’m Carolyn Boyd, and I will be interviewing Xochitl Alvizo and Janet Rudolph of the group blog Feminism and Religion (FAR). Feminism and Religion began in 2011. It’s an all-volunteer project that explores a diversity of viewpoints on the intersection of feminism and religion. And you can find it on the internet at feminismandreligion.com.
This interview is part of an effort by Return to Mago e-Magazine to introduce sister organizations under the banner of the Nine Sisters Network as a way of consolidating Matriversal Feminism, previously known as Goddess Feminist Activist Spirituality, and making all of our works more visible.
So first, let’s introduce Xochitl and Janet.
Xochitl Alvizo is a queer feminist theologian who identifies as a Christian. She teaches in the area of Women and Religion, and the Philosophy of Sex, Gender, and Sexuality at California State University, Northridge. She brings an intercultural feminist approach to theology and the study of religion. Her research is focused on feminist and queer theologies, congregational studies, ecclesiology, and the emerging church. She’s co-founder of Feminism and Religion, along with Gina Messina. Her work is inspired by the conviction that all people are inextricably connected, and the good one can do in any one area inevitably and positively impacts all others. She lives in Los Angeles, California, where she was also born and raised.
Janet Rudolph has traveled to many sacred places in the world to soak up knowledge and experience culture. Along the way, she’s earned two shamanic initiations and written a few books, including When Moses Was a Shaman, When Eve Was a Goddess, and her recent autobiography, Desperately Seeking Persephone. In Persephone, which is subtitled The True Story of My Shamanic Journey Through the Underworld, Janet describes her own personal quest, which brought her from trauma through healing to joy. She also describes in vivid detail what shamanic initiations feel like. She’s recently co-edited Ashera: Roots of the Mother Tree from Girl God Books. Her next book will be The Music of Creation: Exploring Verse and Vibration in the Bible.
Janet writes whenever and wherever she can to express, heal, inform, challenge, startle, and expand love. She’s a contributor and co-weaver at Feminism and Religion, and you can also find her work at Mysticpagan.com.
So let’s get going and hear from Xochitl and Janet.
So, what would you say is Feminism and Religion’s overall mission?
Xochitl: I would say that the overall mission is conversation. The overall mission is to bring together folks, people from across the globe, on topics that intersect in some way or another with feminism or womanism, and religion, spirituality. So the umbrella is really wide, partly because that’s the mission. The mission is really the intersection of voices, of practitioners, activists, scholars, who are looking and talking and living within these two broad umbrellas, and hopefully making connections, even across our differences and our diversities. I think dialogue and conversation is one of the primary ways to capture what the mission of FAR is.
Carolyn: And have you found that the mission has changed over time?
Janet: Well, I just want to add, before we move to the next question, that I think it’s also an educational forum because I, for one, have learned a tremendous amount about really what patriarchy is, how it affects our day-to-day life, and how different religions or spiritual pathways either contribute to it or resist against it. So I think FAR brings an awareness to people about this whole world of feminism and spirituality, and a greater understanding of what it’s all about.
Xochitl: Love that.
Janet: Then you ask how the mission has changed. I don’t know so much that the mission has changed as much as the world has changed because FAR itself, when it started, and Xochitl was one of the founders, it really was groundbreaking as far as bringing these issues to light, to bringing them out to the public, to just making people aware of what was going on, and how these threads influence so much of what’s going on. And at first, it seemed linear, that things were improving. This life is not linear, because there’s been so much backlash. So I don’t know that the mission so much has changed but now we are almost like a voice in the wilderness again of a world that’s increasingly censored, and it’s just harder and harder to find voices that are able to be truthful. And I think we have, our mission is to be truthful.
Carolyn: So, what is it that Feminism and Religion actually offers to those who go to the website?
Xochitl: Thanks for that question because it helps me add, also, I love what Janet just said, because in terms of it being a place, too, of education. It’s a place where people from different generations also are able to interact and be in conversation with each other, right? And part of what it has to offer is that potentiality of not just being echo chambers to one another but about engaging across our differences about these topics that do connect so much with our everyday lives. Spirituality, religion, feminism, womanism, the things that bring meaning to our life, the things that we hold dear, we get to be in conversation, or even just to read.
So what does it have to offer? It offers a daily article, a daily piece, an essay, a short blog from someone’s perspective. It’s always written from the first-person perspective on a topic that falls under this big umbrella of feminism and religion. But that offering is so diverse, right? That offering is so varied from day to day. And you can see it. One of the things that has changed over time is the decrease in engagement in the comments, actually. But you can still see, even with the few folks that are regular contributors to the comments, and then those that occasionally offer comments, you can see that people are coming from different perspectives, different life experiences, and sometimes you can feel the tensions of those.
But I think that’s part of what it offers, and part of what’s unique is that it is this public forum, right? It’s available to all, and part of the intention from the very beginning was to make these conversations accessible.These conversations on feminism and religion should not just be happening in what I call, taking a word from Mary Daly, they should not only be taking place in “academentia”, but we can bring those insights to a more public forum. But then part of the complications of that can be a failure of discourse, of listening, of conversation, but then that’s also the opportunity. So we do a lot of work behind the scenes to try to curate that conversation and try to keep it kind of open, and receptive, and kind to one another. So I think it offers that unique curated or a nurtured space to risk engaging across our differences on these topics that are real close to our hearts.
Janet: I love that point about how it’s a nurtured space. Beautifully said.
Carolyn: Yes, it’s a very caring space, and a very safe space, I think, for people whether you’re a commenter or a contributor.
So, who are some of the contributors that readers will find when they come to the website?
Janet: We have a great diversity, as Xochitl pointed out. I made a list because I was so astounded myself. We have academics. We have poets. We have artists. We have naturalists. We have ritualists. We have people who do personal essays. We have people who do expository essays. The list goes on and on of all the different types of ways that people approach the topic. The site is over 14 years old now and there’s almost 5,000 posts. So we have a great variety of archival posts. Some of the giants from the beginning, such as Carol Christ, Rosemary Radford Ruether, we have their posts in the archives, and then we have more modern artists and writers who are posting today, and we have such, to me, a lovely mix of putting this together.
Carolyn: Actually, one of the things that I find (really helpful) is (that) you have a nice little search bar at the top, and if I’m trying to do some research on something, I will frequently go to your site (and put in) the topic, and I get a whole range of viewpoints.
So, how did Feminism and Religion get started?
Xochitl: I was brought into it by, at the time, a very new colleague, someone I had met at a conference because we were sitting on a panel together. I think I wrote a paper about Jesus and the Goddess. This was at the Western Region AAR, the American Academy of Religion. I was on a panel with Gina Messina. We met that one time in person, and then soon after, maybe a few months later, she reached out to me and was telling me that she and two other of her PhD friends — because we were all working on our PhDs at the time — Gina Messina, Caroline Klein and Cynthia Garrity-Bond, were already in conversation about wanting to get this website started as a place for a public forum that was not strictly academic, purposefully not academic instruction and content, that the writing would be more accessible, and from the first-person perspective. (She asked) if I wanted to come on board. That was in the summer of 2011.
It got sparked by Gina. if you know Gina, Gina’s a total visionary. I like to say, if Gina has a vision I’ll sign up to support it, you know? And so I’m more of the foot soldier or one of the worker bees. I’m a worker bee, she’s a visionary. But (Gina) with Caroline Kline and Cynthia Garrity-Bond were the originators of the of the idea, and then the four of us launched it. I think it was June, 2011. We were doctoral students in our various fields, but all doing work from a feminist perspective, and so we reached out to all the feminist scholars and activists in the field of religious studies and theology and spirituality that we knew.
A lot of people think Carol Christ was one of the founders, but she actually wasn’t one of the founders, but she was one of the contributors who came on very early on. (She) not only came on as a contributor, but very quickly decided to make this a place for her regular writing. And so she started wanting to contribute weekly. Her day was, from the beginning, I think Mondays, her day for posting, and so we continue that in the legacy posts on Mondays. But that’s how it started, and really, the inspiration was to have a place to be able to have these conversations outside of the academy in order to bring a wider diversity of voices, contributors, and audience.
One of the biggest ways that I think it has changed over time, and this is a curious thing — I don’t know if I’ve ever talked to you about it, Janet — but one of the things, because we were committed to the diversity of voices, and the wide spectrum, the big umbrella of anything that fell under religion and spirituality, intersecting with feminism and womanism — we ended up getting a lot of contributors who were part of the Goddess Movement, or Goddess Spirituality, and so it really became a place that they kind of were drawn to as contributors. So where it started a little bit more with more contributors from Christian and Jewish traditions, now you see a little bit heavier on the Goddess spirituality and movement. But, you know, it’s still diverse. But that’s kind of one of the changes.
The other change is that I think we started with a lot of the second wave feminist contributors, and over time, we’ve brought in more voices, more diversity, and younger voices, too, through our internship. We have an internship, where we’ll put out a call, and then we’ll have usually a college student join as an intern, but it’s been different people across the years.Their voices bring a new younger and a fresher perspective on things. So, one of the changes, I think, that has happened in FAR, that has been a growing edge for some of our regular contributors, is basically becoming a space that (is) not only as feminists and womanists, but it’s also very affirming of the expansive way that we talk about who is a woman. One of the things that is important for us that has changed is to be explicit about “women” also includes trans women, people who identify as women, and so that’s been important for FAR to have to make a point to affirm that where I think before it was just kind of taken for granted what a woman was. And now I think who is (a) woman is a contested reality in some circles, in other circles, and I think FAR is one of the places that we’re not having arguments about this. You know, a woman is someone who identifies as a woman. So I think that’s a change that has been necessary as well.
And it has grown just in terms of its reach and in terms of its contributors. People from all over the world read the blog and contribute to it. So, that’s always just fun to track.
Carolyn: Terrific. Do you have things that you would wish for the future for Feminism and Religion?
Janet: I’ll answer that question, but before, I just want to disagree with (Xochitl). I think you are a visionary, in your own right.
Xochitl: Oh, well, thank you.
Janet: I’d like to see even more diversity. I’d like to see more people from different cultures write. We have started something fairly new where we’ve had cooperation with different organizations. The Nasty Women Writers (who) the Dintino sisters write about, they call them nasty women writers, because they, again, speak truth to power. We have a cooperation agreement with them where we co-post some of their articles that we think the FAR readers would be interested in. And we’ve just started a new one (with) NCRI, which is the National Council of Resistance of Iran. We just posted them a few days ago, and their theme is gender equality, and especially in a place where it hasn’t been so obvious, or so easy. So, I love this concept of cooperating with other organizations across the globe even, you know, women supporting women. It’s a beautiful thing. And men, too. I’d like to see more men, because ultimately, we’re all human beings, and if we don’t look at the totality of the human experience I think that would be a grave loss for us.
Xochitl: And we have had, at different times, contributors, who have been with us for a season. People usually have a time, a season, of contributing to FAR, and then their energies go in different directions. But yeah, that’d be great to have more gender diversity in our regular contributors, for sure.
Carolyn: How do you see Feminism and Religion contributing to the cause of feminist activist spirituality, however you may define that, either directly or indirectly?
Xochitl: One of my favorite things, actually, about the platform (are) the opportunities for so many different expressions and phases in the movement of activist spirituality. Because, one, sometimes people write because they’re working through something. They’re thinking through something, they’re trying to figure out something, and it’s an issue, and it’s like trying to figure out “What’s the action around this that I’m being called to, but not yet, (that) I can(not) yet articulate,” right? And writing is a way of thinking, basically, and then you put it on the platform and now you’ve just invited other people to think with you. So that’s one of the ways.
The other way is… oh, I love, like, Caryn (MacGrandle)’s recent post on boycotting or kind of saying no to Black Friday, our overconsumption and just the capitalist tentacles that capitalism has on us. And sometimes the writing (and) the role that FAR has is in women and folks, people, using the space to make those calls, to invite people to action. We’ve had so many different contributors (who) call people to action and that’s one of my favorite things that FAR contributes to is just kind of sharing, spreading the message, sharing, getting the word out.
Also, then, in just being a place, (a) kind of an archive of these kinds of writings, these kinds of moments, capturing these kinds of moments in writing, and being able to have the record of it in times when our voices are being censored, our activism is being criminalized, is being suppressed. I think it’s all the more important to have spaces where we celebrate that, where people know they can go to hear, to learn of different opportunities, to hear what other people are doing in other places on the ground across the world. I think both directly and indirectly FAR contributes the space for all of these different possibilities.
Janet: And I would also add, going back to the theme of education, I kind of credit Carol Christ for this, of how the patriarchy has affected our world. For me, I’ve always been fascinated, in some ways, it seems like we’re re-litigating issues from the Civil War. And why do we keep relitigating abortion issues? Why do we keep relitigating issues from back in history? What are the threads that keep these issues alive and functioning in society and affecting our lives so strongly? There’s an exploration of that. So it’s not only an education, but it’s an exploration of trying to understand, because to really be able to do something about it, we have to know what we’re dealing with.
Carolyn: So how can people who are excited about your mission participate in it and contribute to it?
Janet: There’s several ways. One is to read, read the blog posts, share them if you like them. We are also on Facebook and Bluesky. Another way is to write in the comments. As Xochitl pointed out, in the early days, people commented a lot, and a lot of discussion went on in the comments. And it was very lively, and sometimes that still happens, but it’s not as common. People just seem to function a little bit differently this day and age. And, also, if you have something you want to say, submit a blog post.
We have a contacts and submissions page, and you can look at what our guidelines are. They’re pretty simple. It’s pretty much a matter of word count and to fit our general guidelines, and please submit.
Xochitl: I was just making the gesture of swiping on the phone. I think the comments section conversation has taken a hit by the new kind of habits that come with all the social media on the phones. Commenting is just not the same anymore on a website as it is on a social media post. This is a thing that I’ve actually appreciated about FAR, and that’s different about this platform, is that we haven’t changed format to make our little short stories for social media platform. If anything, we’ve actually expanded our guidelines to have longer pieces, because the writing that people do for FAR is really good quality writing. It’s very accessible. And it’s written purposefully that way, but it’s very good quality writing that people do from their expertise. Whether that’s their expertise as a practitioner, or as a scholar, or as an activist, or as a student. But it comes from a very invested place, and so our pieces are a thousand words, or 1400 words. And so that takes a minute to commit to in terms of reading it. So by the time people read it often they’re not commenting anymore if they made it through. But the other beautiful thing, actually — and I’ll give a shout out to some of our regulars, we do have (a) handful of regular readers who comment almost every day — there really is a default community of people who are in this conversation on a daily basis. And so, anyone who actually takes the time to contribute to the comments in a particular blog post really is having a conversation with real people that we know personally, and who are great. So there’s a really rich opportunity there to learn from others and to engage with others.
Janet: Sometimes other people will step in who we don’t know, which is always fun.
Xochitl: What I know is that there’s people who read every day, but who don’t comment. But they’re there behind the scenes the whole time. So then sometimes, every now and then, they pop in, which is just nice. It’s like, “Oh, okay, there you are.”
Janet: (We like to) hear from you.
Xochitl: Yeah! ‘m so sad to say it, but horribly, I’m one of those people. I work really hard to make sure I at least comment on the blog post that I write, but it’s tough with my schedule and with work and everything. So I do know that people, even though they may not be commenting, they are there and they do care. But you know, we all have the different places where our energies have to go, so we do our best, we do our best.
Carolyn: What’s the best way for people to contact you at FAR whether they’re interested in contributing, or (if) they just have a comment or a question?
Xochitl: The contact and submissions tab that Janet mentioned, includes our email, which is feminismandreligionblog at gmail.com.
Xochitl: And what I want to say out loud to folks is that a real person’s actually reading those emails every day, and that is Janet. Janet is the person reading those emails, and then she’ll tag me or let me know if there’s things that I need to respond to also, but they are not going unattended. This is an all-volunteer effort, so we might not be right on top of it, right? It is based on the daily rhythms of our own schedules. But they’re being read and responded to by Janet or myself, so the best way to contact us is feminismandreligionblog at gmail.com.
Carolyn: And are there ways (in which) the Nine Sisters Networks, which is the network of women and spirituality organizations that Return to Mago is putting together, can help you, that you would like to connect with other organizations? Are there ways you’d like to participate in the networks?
Janet: I’d like to see more cross-posting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t work. Although some of the same people are on the different networks, we do have different catchment audiences. And the more we can spread these connections, the better. So I would just like to see more cooperation workings with different organizations and different groups.
Carolyn: Are there any questions I’ve forgotten to ask, or anything you would like to say before we wrap up?
Xochitl: Actually, I wanted to mention one thing in terms of connections and collaborations. One of the fun things that happens also every now and then is that a professor might use FAR for their classroom teaching. I do know that there’s certain blog posts that they use regularly in classrooms because they become like the educational piece that Janet was talking about. There’s some great pieces by Carol Christ where she’s defining patriarchy. And Janet just started this year, I think, republishing those in a particular time of year, every year, because they’re such a great resource. Sometimes professors will have students read the post on FAR on a particular subject, but what they’ve also done at times is made it an option to have one of the assignments be contributing a blog post to FAR. So we have had students who, as part of a classroom assignment, write a blog post to submit. It doesn’t mean it’ll get accepted or that it’ll fit, but it’s an opportunity for them to think about their public voice, and to put a piece of writing of their own work and research in a really well-established platform. And for us to be able to give them feedback, too, and say, like, “Oh, this would be a great fit for FAR. Could you draw out a little bit more of the feminism? Could you draw out a little bit more of the spirituality?” You know, whatever kind of feedback we might give. And that’s always a fun collaboration that I would encourage us to consider more.
Carolyn: Anything else either of you would like to mention before we wrap up?
Janet: Just want to thank you, both for being a contributor — your posts are always wonderful — and for doing this interview with us.
Carolyn: Thank you! Oh, well, my pleasure, my pleasure.
Xochitl: Yeah, Carolyn, when was the first time that you contributed to FAR?
Carolyn: I think 2012, maybe?
Xochitl: Yeah, I was gonna say, you’ve been here from the very beginning, too!
Carolyn: You are a wonderful platform, and I’m actually very grateful that you’ve been a place for me to write through many different phases of what(ever) I was writing (about at the time), but also to just connect with so many other writers and thinkers. You’ve opened many doors, not only for me, but I think for many other people, and we appreciate it.
Janet: (That’s) our mission right there.
Xochitl: Yeah, that’s it. It’s always a team effort, it’s always collaborative, and it’s always about who’s willing to engage, you know? And so we do it together, and I’m so grateful.
Carolyn: Well, this has been a wonderful conversation. It’s been great to sit down with the two of you and really dig into a little bit more about FAR and let other people know about FAR. So, thank you both very much.
Xochitl: Thank you, Carolyn! Thank you, thank you.
Janet: Thank you both.